|
|
Post by grolly on Jul 25, 2020 8:50:10 GMT
Following on from my comments on my first post. I was discussing this new & improved forum with a friend last night over a pint in the “Keyboard & Mouse” (our virtual pub on zoom) and as the good ship “quality” sailed to make way for the junk “quantity” the subject of Webber’s was expanded on.
A claim was made by one of the patrons of the “Mouse & Keyboard” (quantity you understand) that the first conversion produced 89bhp (as opposed to the 145 is it on a standard car?). And didn’t include a breather so that cars fitted with the conversion pissed oil and stank the can out. Any truth in that? Is this why rolling toad figures are unavailable?
|
|
|
|
Post by primerstag on Jul 25, 2020 9:11:17 GMT
Hello Mr Grolly.
Interesting name, my kids used to call nasal mucus grollys.
Can’t vouch for 89bhp but remember it being only in double figures.
Strombergs have a way of dealing with crankcase breathing which the weber or other carbs don’t, so yes they will pressurise the crankcase and blow the oil seals if the engine is a bit worn, which most are.
Expensive modification if it alerts you to a £5k engine rebuild.
|
|
|
|
Post by grolly on Jul 25, 2020 10:28:41 GMT
In my youth a grolly was either a bogie or a testicle. They are also apparently cat biscuits.
It’s also a term used by an ex serviceman pal of mine anything a bit shit - as in “there’s grollies on your boots, clean them” or “you and your grolly friends are fucking disgrace” or, more recently “fuck me mate, that Webber conversion is a bit grolly”
|
|
bullstarz
Full Member
I don't believe in miracles, divine intervention or good luck............. I rely on them.
Posts: 135
|
Post by bullstarz on Jul 25, 2020 10:55:50 GMT
The rolling road/Dyno figures are an odd one. As each one will printout a different output.
The original figure 140 bhp was possibly a bit optimistic and took into account all of the losses of the engine and drive train. I'm sure the Italians just quote any figure they like. The Figures that you quote about the Webber may be the Rear Wheel Brake Horse Power, RWBHP, RBHP or WHP. Which is a lot different, see this for a decent explanation;
www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFVnkrkQ6k this bloke gets younger every year but he has some great understanding and explains engineering/Physics stuff so us average mortals can understand it.
Back on track
I have seen cars, including Stag's, with a fairly proud owner waving a sheet of paper with graph and some numbers on it. The all important max bhp being quoted. One quoted ( in the region of ) 135 bhp and the owner pleased as punch that his car had only lost a few ponies in 40 years. But he must have been punch drunk to believe that figure and not realise how bad the torque curve was. One of the numbers on the sheet, which was around the 90 bhp mark was the power at the rear wheels, whp.
So it was taking 45 bhp to turn everything, drive train and engine plus ancillaries, not good. So the quote of 89bhp isn't far off if it was a auto car and quoting whp.
In comparison you have only got to look at all the work the some Stag owners have done to their engines ( Stagdad and the Flying Farmer) to see what the average output of the original engine was and what has to be done to in the search to liberate more.
Is it all about "Power"
* Just found this;
81 bhp ( power at the wheels) 67 bhp in losses so the Max the engine made 148 bhp.
So the Webber figure of 89 bhp shows a about a 10% increase in power...... Just saying.
|
|
|
|
Post by staggard on Jul 25, 2020 12:01:00 GMT
While I agree its everyone choice what they do to their car, my issue is with anybody that takes advantage of others by setting themselves up as a Triumph Stag modifications expert who has no qualifications in the field whatsoever.The weber story as I understand it ( somebody can correct me if I'm wrong) was someone else's idea (as was them all) he jumped on it and the first people who bought found their cars ran like shit someone then took on the task of rejetting to get a reasonable result. Then we have the problem with the air filter big chrome dinner plate that draws the HOT air from under the bonnet, Now if the guy had half a brain he would have realised BL already had this problem and modified it. So the next move was to design ( I use the term loosely) the fresh air frying pan. Then we have customers complaining about fitting his mod resulted in oil leaks so then he goes into trying to develop a crankcase breathing system that his mod did away with. I'm sorry this is long winded but you might have guessed I feel strongly about this guy and feel he is just a con man worst of the worst. My point is that he has used his customer's to develop his mod Eg I've sold you this but now you need this Oh now you need this and so on.The same with his HT started off too small capacity so after a few hot cold cycles it emptied itself so then makes a bigger one. Did he do a recall ( as any reasonable person would) and swap for a Mk2 you guessed it NO. I joined his FB page and challenged him on his products the response was to have his band of Merry men bad mouth me and when that failed I was banned. I'm in full support of well thought out proved and tested mods Eg Stagdads external water pump devoloped and tested at his own expense before marketing it. Also it is a practical solution to a bad design that has the potential of destroying the engine as well as being sited in the wrong place. So ends the first lesson sorry to bore disinterested parties.😴😴
|
|
|
|
Post by primerstag on Jul 25, 2020 12:29:55 GMT
Bullstarz.
I agree that there are many different ways of expressing BHP, I think the BHP at the wheels is the only valid figure as there are so many fiddle factors calculating losses to give engine BHP. In fact more recent tests at a well known Stag restorer gave ZF cars with standard engines 190BHP.
I remember that the low output weber car was measured at a National Day and the other cars figures were as expected, all calculated back to flywheel.
|
|
vader
Junior Member
Posts: 55 
|
Post by vader on Jul 25, 2020 13:16:59 GMT
Grolly, I have a Webber bought from a trader from the other side. I needed a quick fix as I was heading of to Le Mans and my strommies were giving me some grief.
Duly fitted and off I went, that was 10 years ago. My car leaked oil (suppose it did before the conversion too) and last year I got around to fitting a catch tank and PCV. I fitted a take off on the Webber adaptor plate. Not difficult to do but said trader really should’ve carried out some proper R and D. Any way, I’m not grinding any axe and my car runs really quite well, I’ve never put it on a dyno, I’m too scared and mechanically sympathetic?
P.s, fitting the catch tank and PCV has greatly reduced the oil leak(s)
|
|
|
|
Post by richardthestag on Jul 25, 2020 13:26:22 GMT
Hello Mr Grolly. Interesting name, my kids used to call nasal mucus grollys. Can’t vouch for 89bhp but remember it being only in double figures. Strombergs have a way of dealing with crankcase breathing which the weber or other carbs don’t, so yes they will pressurise the crankcase and blow the oil seals if the engine is a bit worn, which most are. Expensive modification if it alerts you to a £5k engine rebuild. look here www.socforum.com/forum/forum/stag-owners-club/soc-forum/5893-power-challenge-rolling-road-and-open-day?p=122693#post122693Mine only managed 101, running on 6 cylinders (two plugs proper carboned up), running way too rich because of tired Strommies and with an air filter full of Le Mans dust and shit.  Sukhs car managed 94 with the weber! I recall some bollocks about one or more of the timing chains being a tooth out in the subsequent blamestorm from the trader. I managed to install the RH chain one tooth out and the engine would not turn through one revolution. Anyway it got me into sorting mine out. I spent the next 11 years of my life understanding Strommies, how they work and how to set them up properly, would love another go at the Rolling Road with the car as it is setup now. Did Tenerife Terry ever get his stag working again after installing the weber and debating drilling holes in the block to get the oil that had escaped back into the engine? |
|
bullstarz
Full Member
I don't believe in miracles, divine intervention or good luck............. I rely on them.
Posts: 135
|
Post by bullstarz on Jul 25, 2020 14:11:38 GMT
I'll just point out that not in anyway shape or form saying that the Webber will/might increase power. Or saying the supplier has a good products, if he's the same bloke who makes the modded soft top catches. Then I know they work on my hood and that's as bent, twisted and out of shape as Sir Elton John. Weather that was one his (own original ) products i dont know.
But in saying that they work fine doesn't mean that anything else will.
Richardthestag were all those BHP figures from the dyno at ENGINUITY Max bhp or at the wheels. As the range, 86 to 131, could be good figures if it was at the wheels but if it was Max BHP then the 86 bhp car has/had got some serious issues.
Personally if I still had the standard engine I would be looking at fuel injection. Either my own design (which would be shite ) or go for something like Holley sniper bolt on kit. But if I bought anything I would want to know that it worked and that claims could be backed up with more than "Yes mate, best bit of kt ever"
Its all personal choice at the end of the day.
|
|
|
|
Post by staggard on Jul 25, 2020 14:27:59 GMT
Yep I believe that the hood gate latch idea was the one and only original idea.He has now set himself up as hood and frame specialist and taken on a ex kitchen fitter as an apprentice. The only hood I have seen with my own eyes looked like a hammock on the drivers side. As I understand it the owner supplied the hood which came from Aldridge, when the owner took his car to a professional trimmer to have the interior done and he also redid the hood he told the owner that the hood had been cut to fit and they had used spray glue to fit it. If I have this wrong then the owner can correct me.
|
|
|
|
Post by grolly on Jul 25, 2020 15:39:31 GMT
Yep I believe that the hood gate latch idea was the one and only original idea.He has now set himself up as hood and frame specialist and taken on a ex kitchen fitter as an apprentice. The only hood I have seen with my own eyes looked like a hammock on the drivers side. As I understand it the owner supplied the hood which came from Aldridge, when the owner took his car to a professional trimmer to have the interior done and he also redid the hood he told the owner that the hood had been cut to fit and they had used spray glue to fit it. If I have this wrong then the owner can correct me. I think I saw a picture of a hood fitted by - photo posted by proud owner delighted with the job. To my jaundiced eye it had more wrinkles than my scrotum. But the owner seemed happy -is that not all that matters? |
|
|
|
Post by staggard on Jul 25, 2020 16:13:53 GMT
I guess your right. I just don't like to see piss poor workmanship in any walk of life. I've taken on various trades in my life and always strived to do them correctly so it goes against the grain when I see people earning money for producing shit. I guess old school " do it once do it right" doesn't count for much anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by staggard on Jul 25, 2020 16:24:58 GMT
Hello Mr Grolly. Interesting name, my kids used to call nasal mucus grollys. Can’t vouch for 89bhp but remember it being only in double figures. Strombergs have a way of dealing with crankcase breathing which the weber or other carbs don’t, so yes they will pressurise the crankcase and blow the oil seals if the engine is a bit worn, which most are. Expensive modification if it alerts you to a £5k engine rebuild. look here www.socforum.com/forum/forum/stag-owners-club/soc-forum/5893-power-challenge-rolling-road-and-open-day?p=122693#post122693Mine only managed 101, running on 6 cylinders (two plugs proper carboned up), running way too rich because of tired Strommies and with an air filter full of Le Mans dust and shit. View AttachmentSukhs car managed 94 with the weber! I recall some bollocks about one or more of the timing chains being a tooth out in the subsequent blamestorm from the trader. I managed to install the RH chain one tooth out and the engine would not turn through one revolution. Anyway it got me into sorting mine out. I spent the next 11 years of my life understanding Strommies, how they work and how to set them up properly, would love another go at the Rolling Road with the car as it is setup now. Did Tenerife Terry ever get his stag working again after installing the weber and debating drilling holes in the block to get the oil that had escaped back into the engine? |
|
|
|
Post by staggard on Jul 25, 2020 16:34:08 GMT
I don't know what the outcome was. The car was sitting in the car park for months, last time I saw the car the ITV (MOT) sticker had run out so not been on the road. A couple of weeks ago when I drove past the car had gone and up until last Thursday it had not returned.
|
|
|
|
Post by grolly on Jul 25, 2020 17:02:53 GMT
I don't know what the outcome was. The car was sitting in the car park for months, last time I saw the car the ITV (MOT) sticker had run out so not been on the road. A couple of weeks ago when I drove past the car had gone and up until last Thursday it had not returned. I’m not sure who you’re talking about - is that the car that had turnbuckle from a lamp post bolted between the suspension turret and the pas pump? |
|
